4-in-1 freeze before Windows, and DMA disk corruption

[Kalvos2]

Hi all,

First post. I searched for this topic and found only two, and neither had the same circumstances.

I have been running an overclocked Athlon 1.2GHz Iwill KK266 for years (since 2001) and decided to upgrade hardware a little (small budget).

I switched to a Sempron 3400+ Asus K8V-X SE (not overclocked) with 1GB memory on the Asus list. I backed up everything, deleted all the hardware profiles in safe mode, and shut down. The switch went smoothly -- I tested first, added the video card (Matrox G450 AGP), tested again, added the floppy, booted from that, then installed the hard drives. It rebooted, and all the new and old hardware was found and the system performed without problems at that point. I worked for a few hours as usual, checked all the software, and noticed that though the processing was faster, disk access was slower.

First, the system:
Asus K8V-X SE (socket 754), Sempron 3400+, 1GB memory
Chipset VIA K8T800 and VT8237R
Windows 98SE (including all final updates)
Matrox G450 AGP (last unified Win98SE drivers, 6.82), Linksys Wireless-G (latest drivers), 2 each Waveterminal 2496 sound cards (latest drivers)
Dual monitors (ViewSonic and Samsung)

The hardware profiles showed the DMA controller with the ?, so I ran the supplied Asus 4-in-1 driver, and the system booted until the Windows screen, where it froze with a black screen. Different boots either turned off the left monitor or ran a distorted image of the boot screen logo.

I tried the following in order before posting here:
1. From DOS, restored the original user and system dats, and deleted all Via references, went through the hardware find sequence again. Good.
2. Updated the BIOS. Ran the latest 4-in-1. Black screen.
3. From DOS, restored again, etc., refound hardware, etc. Good.
4. Disabled the sound card and LAN in the BIOS (since I have sound and wireless). Good.
5. Bad mistake: enabled DMA on the hard drives anyway. It started eating the data immediately.
6. Restored the drives from backup (12 hours lost, naturally!), and everything came up again.
7. Re-ran the earlier 4-in-1 (recommended here for Win98SE -- forget the exact version). Black screen.
8. Set BIOS AGP to 2x. Black screen.
9. Restored (etc.) and it works, but gave up. Here I am.

Everything works as it did before, but slower (no 4-in-1 and no DMA). All the software works, the network functions -- it's just like the hardware I just upgraded, but with faster CPU and slower hard drives. It sort of evens out as if I hadn't spent the money. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

I'd really like to get that disk access going, but can't afford to poke around and corrupt the data again (just because of the time it takes to restore from backups).

Any help? Is there anything I've done wrong? This is the first time in 15 years of building & upgrading that I've run into a wall like this.

Thanks,
Dennis

[SaphireX]

Hello Kalvos2

Unless you have some burning desire to run the "obsolete & unsupported" Win98 on a your 2006 hardware upgraded platform----I recommend that you think about getting XP w/SP2 as an OS and that will solve your DMA as well as all of the yet to be discovered problems...

Saphire

[Kalvos2]

Thanks for the recommendation. I already have an XP machine, as well as a Win95 one and several dating back to a KIM-1. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

The reason for keeping this one well and happy is because of software that will not run under XP, particularly sound installations that require particular software that XP spits out. So occasionally I have to replace components to do make sure older machines keep working.

I know everyone always says "upgrade", but upgrading does not solve all problems, particularly in archiving artistic projects. It would be great to have successful emulators, but one just can't depend on those.

Thanks again -- and any solution to the problem? Pretty please?
Dennis

[tcsenter]

98SE should work OK on this board, but you will near certainly need to do a clean install of 98SE and restore only your data files, not the registry and system files from your old install. Perform a fresh install of your applications and drivers as well.

Restoring a full system backup is viable only on a substantially similar hardware configuration. Sure, you can migrate your installation from KT133A to KT266A, but from KT133A to K8T800 (a full six product cycles newer)? Good luck and I'll wish you a Happy New Year today, because you probably will be working on it until then if you try to migrate your old installation.

As for the best VIA 4-in-1 driver version, I don't know why VIA recommends an ancient version such as 4.43 or 4.35. These would only be suitable for running a legacy operating system on very OLD hardware; e.g. Windows 98 on KT133A or 694x. Running a legacy operating system on current hardware, or current operating system running on legacy hardware, requires a later version of the 4-in-1. Neither 4.35 nor 4.43 even has support for K8T800 or VT8237R.

I would use Hyperion 4-in-1 V4.56 on your setup. You'll need the VIA Integrated Rhine II driver for the onboard LAN. ADI Audio drivers are available from ASUS download server.

Install 98SE on a minimalist setup (no audio, modem, NIC, etc.), then add all these optional devices and peripherals after 98SE is up and running with the latest chipset/device support, updates, and patches. Also remember to remove one memory module during 98SE setup, or whatever you need to do in order to have no more than 512MB of RAM when installing 98SE.

[Kalvos2]

Thanks very much for the suggestions.

Yes, I probably will be working on it for a while.

The Hyperion driver did not work; I already tried that.

The Rhine driver caused my existing wireless to stop working, so I disabled the LAN in the BIOS. That came back successfully.

Reinstalling Windows did not work. As for as a fresh install, I'm not sure what is worse -- working until the New Year or reinstalling just shy of 700 applications, some of the important ones "tethered" (vendor licensed) where the vendors no longer exist (WaveZip, anyone?).

In any case, I've got the system very stable, without DMA enabled on the hard drives.

But in all the installs/reinstalls an even worse (for me) problem has come up: I've lost the audio system. This happened once before (about 5 years ago) and there was a registry fix. I followed all the likely culprits, including reinstalling drivers; reinstalling Windows; safe-mode deletion of multimedia sound system and all sound devices; etc.; it just comes up with the sound devices all installed but not available to the multimedia control panel. I pulled the old Waveterminal boards for now. The onboard audio shows up as it should with its control panel, but not in the Windows multimedia control panel (except as an installed device). When I plug in the M-Audio USB interface, it installs as expected with its control panel, but again not the Windows multimedia control panel. But I can't find the reference to that old registry fix, and the "MeSoundFix" registry change doesn't help. Grrr. Without the sound subsystem working, the machine is useless -- I do my sound editing of many older archived projects on this box.

The 512MB RAM issue interests me, though. Does Win98 duplicate its RAM use? Could that cause disk corruption? I could surely put the 512MB back in if that's likely to have been the cause of the data corruption, and enable me to restore DMA.

Until I test every application on Windows XP (and find some untethered versions of older software), the Win98SE machine needs to be running. And if those applications don't work under XP, the older machine has to keep running! (You should see my collection of Tandy Color Computers, all intended to keep this (http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/bocca/) running.

Many thanks for your kind attention,
Dennis

[tcsenter]

Here is the procedure I've used dozens of times to upgrade the motherboard on an existing 98SE install (roughly 25% ultimately <u>requiring</u> a clean install):

Create one full backup of your system as-is, so you can restore the old setup if necessary. Make sure the the hard drive and file system are in good health by running full surface scan and defragmenter. Uninstall all non-essential devices and their drivers, including the enhanced video drivers (change to Standard VGA Display Adapter). Install updated chipset support from the 4-in-1 version I linked to (4.56), restart when prompted, allow Windows to update any device drivers.

The last thing to do in Windows before shutting down and swapping out the old hardware is to delete/uninstall "PCI bus" from Device Manager under System Devices. Instead of restarting, shut down the system. At this point, use a DOS based utility to create an image of the disk including the system state, in case your first swap attempt doesn't go as planned. Turn the PC off, disconnect from power source, and change-out the hardware.

In the new BIOS, disable ACPI 2.0 Support, Cool and Quiet, RAID, Audio, LAN, and USB2.0 support. Set DMA Mode for HDD and CD/DVD Drives to MWDMA2. Save and Exit.

Boot with a 98SE boot diskette and create a new MBR for the HDD (format /MBR) based on the new BIOS geometry. Restart and boot into Safe Mode, let Windows install 'new' hardware, restart when prompted. Boot normally and let Windows finish installing new hardware, restarting when prompted. You might have to restart one or two additional times from this step, after Windows continues to find and install additional hardware. You may also need to 'help' Windows find some driver files, such as the ASUS ACPI driver (should also be on the ASUS Install CD).

Before installing your remaining devices, particularly PCI cards, install the VIA IRQ Routing Miniport driver. Then re-install your other devices and drivers (LAN, Audio, WLAN, Matrox drivers, etc.), go back into the BIOS and set DMA Mode of your drives to their highest supported mode (or AUTO), and enable USB2.0. Latest VIA USB2.0 drivers. This driver supports the integrated USB2.0 provided by VT8237R Southbridge under 98/ME.

As for as a fresh install, I'm not sure what is worse -- working until the New Year or reinstalling just shy of 700 applications, some of the important ones "tethered" (vendor licensed) where the vendors no longer exist (WaveZip, anyone?).

We've all been there. Making that long-dreaded executive decision to let go of the huge number of programs and utilities we compulsively hoarded over the years, are no longer used on a regular basis or really aren't that good by contemporary standards, but we nonetheless found a weird sense of security and comfort in keeping around...just in case. I have found suitable if not superior replacements for all of the older programs I let go.

WaveZip? This is not a good example of a program worthy of keeping. FLAC lossless encoder is significantly superior to WaveZip, is much more refined than WaveZip ever was, and is open-source so it will continue to be improved and supported for many years to come. FLAC is a command-line encoder but there are GUI front-ends for it.

[Kalvos2]

Hello,

Thanks so much for the detailed reply. I will save this information for the future (because I'll certainly need it). In the desperate meantime, after many more failed attempts to make this thing operate properly, here's what I did:

My solution was old and dirty, and one I did not like at all. I pulled the system.dat and user.dat from a backup done just before the upgrade, but I did NOT delete any profiles in the hardware manager (including motherboard resources, despite this being a motherboard change) and simply booted the system normally (not Safe Mode). Through the various attempts, of course, all the new drivers were already on the hard drive waiting to be installed, but this was (from a registry point-of-view, so to speak) booting the 'old' computer. It must have left a huge clot of old junk in the registry, but after auto-detecting the new hardware, everything worked, including the sound that had gone missing.

I really hated doing that, but for now I can't argue with it working.

I really wish I knew the registry details, but differences between the old 'working' registry, the new 'failed' registry, and the present registry (all saved) are far too many to track down for now.

The only thing still not working (because I haven't risked it) is DMA with the hard drives. Since I've read of 'inevitable' data corruption with 1GB RAM and Windows 98SE, I will crank the RAM down to 512MB and try again. But all my data has been safely retrieved to an XP system with a couple of "MyBook" drives attached. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

If you have any insight on the possible RAM/DMA issue, I'd appreciate it. Other than that, I'll sign off and get back to work!

Many thanks again,
Dennis

[Kalvos2]

Postscript about WaveZip: This program is installed because I have numerous (I'm talking dozens) of CD-Rs with large projects on them in this format. I haven't used WaveZip in years to do encoding.

As a composer of electronic music, these utilities are either available or my work is lost. And the idea of living in a state of constant upgrade is not exactly appealing; I have (gasp) eight crates of CD-Rs and DVD-Rs with my work on them. Each crate contains upwards of 250 disks ... so I'd get nothing new done!

Having been through the lost-hardware scenario before (I started doing music on computers in 1977), I find it incredibly discouraging.

So, you see... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Thanks for reading!

Dennis

[tcsenter]

Postscript about WaveZip: This program is installed because I have numerous (I'm talking dozens) of CD-Rs with large projects on them in this format. I haven't used WaveZip in years to do encoding.

Decode them all to WAV, and encode those WAVs to FLAC. An increasing number of audio editing/encoding programs are supporting FLAC natively.

BTW, have you seen websites like Rare Wares, Old Version, and Old Apps? I found WaveZip on RareWares. I don't know if that is older or newer than the version you have.

You might be able to find the setup files for many of these discontinued programs and utilites around the internet. Registration or serial keys required for the program can often be found in the registry, a file in the program folder, or in the program 'about' section. As a last resort, you might be able to find serial or registration keys from the warez/cracking scene.

As for your DMA, try setting the DMA Mode in BIOS for your drives to MWDMA2 or disabling Ultra DMA (UDMA). Then tick the DMA box in Device Manager for your drives. This may at least allow you to use DMA mode, which is hugely better than PIO.


On Edit: If you have been into DTMP that long, what are you doing with a VIA chipset? Almost all DAW/DTMP hardware, peripheral, and software vendors recommend Intel chipsets and motherboards. I would have looked for an Intel chipset or motherboard, such as:

TYAN Trinity i845E (S2099)

Intel D845PEBT2

Intel D865PERL

Intel in particular is exceptional about BIOS refinement and regularly updating drivers for its motherboards. I'm no Intel fan and almost never use Intel chipsets for general multimedia, entertainment, and productivity computing, but I won't use anything else for specialty applications like DAW.

[Engine]

As I recall there is a limitation of 512 m of ram with 98. Check this Knowledgebase Article. If nothing else it is worth a try and easy to revert back if no help.